Curse

LifeInfusion · Jun 20, 2007, 02:27 AM // 02:27

I don't think bows are underpowered as people say over at GWO and since nobody made this type of thread here I will link to it.

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...d.php?t=454958
Thread title: "[Rangers need another look at?!]: Decrease Refire Rate / Add more Base Dmg..."

The discussion has really picked up since it started.

Evilsod · Jun 20, 2007, 03:45 AM // 03:45

I really think they do. Scythes have the bonus of hitting multiple targets. They have a good IAS and they attack faster than most bows. Along with having a much higher critical hit. Spears have almost identical damage. I've found they seem to miss much less than Shortbows, could just be coincidence, they attack much faster and are 1 handed.

I'll give it 5 seconds before some prick interprets this post as 'i want my Ranger to shoot enemies through the heart, killing them in 1 hit'.

XvArchonvX · Jun 20, 2007, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Imo, bows are utility weapons more than damage dealing weapons. They do a good job of applying conditions and interupting from a long range, even though they don't pump out huge numbers. If a bow could do base damage like an axe or scythe, why would anyone use anything else? The only reason I could see for this would be lack of deep wound, but that could be made up for by something like Augary of Death.

ArKaiN · Jun 20, 2007, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Scythes have the bonus of hitting multiple targets. They have a good IAS and they attack faster than most bows

Yes, bows should have 9-41 basic damage and hit 3 people from range.
...
...
Seriously, make an argument, but don't compare them to weapons from other professions.
Bow's damage is balanced because you can use insane skills from a distance that add a gazillion damage, 30 seconds of daze or carry 2 conditions from an aggro bubble and a half away.
No, they don't do 150 damage+poison+fire or deal 100 dmg+interrupt. This is not unbalanced.

EDIT: Jesus, they have 30 pages of people going "Like, it should totally do the same damage as a hammer!" and sane people going "Yes, and that would destroy the game".
Ever heard a Ranger noob complaining he couldn't kill stuff in PvE?

Me neither.

KazeMitsui · Jun 20, 2007, 06:29 AM // 06:29

the part about a bubble and a half is easily dodged imooooooooooooooooo
either that or just stand there and take it cause the only bows that can do that distance without height advantage is long and flatbow and last i recall both of those are quite easy to freakin dodge... but yea thats all i have to say wont really contribute anything else...

copper-elf · Jun 20, 2007, 06:51 AM // 06:51

/agree with Archon.

Bows can apply tons of conditions from afar. Scythes can't do that.

Shuuda · Jun 20, 2007, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Bows are the best interrupting weapon in the game. And good choice for condition spreading. Not everything is about solely damage. Bow are a fine weapon of choice.

RotteN · Jun 20, 2007, 10:37 AM // 10:37

bows are just fine, rangers are fine, people that complain should go play WoW and pick one of the overpowered classes so they can have the obvious ingame advantage to compensate for their lack of actual playerskill.

If you realy want to start comparing the basic damage of weapons, i'd say spears are overpowered, not bows are underpowered.

face it, 14-27 damage, 1.5 seconds interval as opposed to 15-22 damage, 1.33 seconds interval on a sword. Yet spears are ranged, and have spammable attacks, aswell as a permanent IAS that doesn't realy have any drawbacks ...

Stormlord Alex · Jun 20, 2007, 10:51 AM // 10:51

I don't think bows are underpowered at all. Archers get Savage Shot.

ryanryanryan0310 · Jun 20, 2007, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Besides having the longest range, pretty good firing rate and a differnet bow for every situation, Bows suck..............WTF you want to put mini nuclear warheads on them.....

GWO has a bunch of whinny nubs, so does guru but they got more than us

Destinyy · Jun 20, 2007, 11:33 AM // 11:33

yeah bows suck, but there are a huge range of preps you can add to bows to make em unsuck!!!

My latest fave for spiking is Glass/Brutal then dual and forked arrow... Can't wait to get triple shot and try it out...

XvArchonvX · Jun 20, 2007, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by KazeMitsui

the part about a bubble and a half is easily dodged imooooooooooooooooo
either that or just stand there and take it cause the only bows that can do that distance without height advantage is long and flatbow and last i recall both of those are quite easy to freakin dodge... but yea thats all i have to say wont really contribute anything else...

Keep in mind too, that bows are the only weapons that come in different variants to produce different effects. Need a more accurate bow? Take a recurve. Need to hit that target in the distance? Take a flat or longbow. Want to apply constant refire on a target? Take a shortbow.

Oh, and as far as flat and longbows go, the use of them depends on how much they miss. If you are using a flatbow without Read the Winds or Favorable Winds, then your problem is painfully clear. If you are doing PvP, then you really shouldn't be using a flat/long unless you are taking out NPCs such as capping in an AB or something. Recurves are king of PvP otherwise.

ArKaiN · Jun 20, 2007, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Keep in mind too, that bows are the only weapons that come in different variants to produce different effects. Need a more accurate bow? Take a recurve. Need to hit that target in the distance? Take a flat or longbow. Want to apply constant refire on a target? Take a shortbow.

Oh, and as far as flat and longbows go, the use of them depends on how much they miss. If you are using a flatbow without Read the Winds or Favorable Winds, then your problem is painfully clear. If you are doing PvP, then you really shouldn't be using a flat/long unless you are taking out NPCs such as capping in an AB or something. Recurves are king of PvP otherwise.

I disagree.
I usually bring a short and a longbow into arenas(BHA. If running Burning, Long goes out for recurve). Watch the people. Monk standing still? No need to dive into people to BHA. Just bring out a Long Bow and make that sucker useless a bubble and a half away. Monk dancing around? In goes short, run into touch distance, BHA, keep that sucker interrupted with quick refire.
Hell, I actually use all 3. Longs are also useful when you spot a rit laying down a spirit that might be a nuisance. Interrupting Recuperation from so far not even the eles cant cast on me makes me feel all fuzzy inside.

Francis Demeules · Jun 20, 2007, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Keep in mind too, that bows are the only weapons that come in different variants to produce different effects. Need a more accurate bow? Take a recurve. Need to hit that target in the distance? Take a flat or longbow. Want to apply constant refire on a target? Take a shortbow.

Oh, and as far as flat and longbows go, the use of them depends on how much they miss. If you are using a flatbow without Read the Winds or Favorable Winds, then your problem is painfully clear. If you are doing PvP, then you really shouldn't be using a flat/long unless you are taking out NPCs such as capping in an AB or something. Recurves are king of PvP otherwise.

You have forgotten the Hornbow, buddy. I know few players use it but having what, 10% armor penetration (no need sundering mod on it so you can put another mod) vs the long firerate. Its good to use it as spike. In my mind, good for PvE.

Like you said, Recurve bows are really the king of PvP, you need more accurate than long range.

dicecube · Jun 20, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArKaiN

Yes, bows should have 9-41 basic damage and hit 3 people from range.
...
...
Seriously, make an argument, but don't compare them to weapons from other professions.
Bow's damage is balanced because you can use insane skills from a distance that add a gazillion damage, 30 seconds of daze or carry 2 conditions from an aggro bubble and a half away.
No, they don't do 150 damage+poison+fire or deal 100 dmg+interrupt. This is not unbalanced.

EDIT: Jesus, they have 30 pages of people going "Like, it should totally do the same damage as a hammer!" and sane people going "Yes, and that would destroy the game".
Ever heard a Ranger noob complaining he couldn't kill stuff in PvE?

Me neither.

lol interesting reply.. awaiting sod's reply

Evilsod · Jun 20, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Its not worth the effort. I gave a reply to his in my first post. Its the little bit at the bottom referring to certain pricks...

I'm still waiting for people to show me where these bow rangers are in PvP since the profession obviously has no problems with its DPS. Oh except its slower refire is only made worse by things like Faintheartedness. The only reason BA gankers are so potent is because of the degen vs opponents with limited healing.

Rangers get Savage Shot doesn't mean anything. That only works if you interrupt a spell. Can't take something into account for DPS when it depends on the enemy doing something.

Why exactly can't i bring Scythes into this? They are by far the most unbalanced weapon in the game. Yesterday while messing around on the Isle of the Nameless i managed to get a critical hit of about 340 from a regular attack. Course thats the extreme... but 340? A Ranger can only dream of damage numbers that high on 60 AL targets.

The bow line needs more damage. Either the bow needs a buff, because its really starting to look completely outclassed now when compared to the other lines, or the Marksmanship line needs a buff.
Just compare the Spear line to the Bow line. Bow has the ability to give 3 conditions, bleeding, but quite conditionally, burning on 1 elite, dazed on 1 elite 1 normal interrupt and an elite and non elite cripple. Spear gets adren based Burning, spammable adren based bleeding, 1 elite dazed, multiple deep wounds.
Only advantage bow has is that preperations, which basically attempt to make up for its obvious lack of damage is the ease of application of poison, which can be used by all other professions too if they wanted. They force it to specialize in either conditions or damage. You can't get both a good mix of both outside of Burning Arrow which isn't as strong once your back with healing. But Spear is 1 handed, attacks faster, has access to almost as many conditions.

Theres a reason why bow rangers don't actually exist in PvP... they suck for damage. You can find pretty much every Rampage as One variant known to man, a huge variety of trappers and spirit spammers and only 3 actual bow builds. 1 is BA which we already know is strong pressure vs opponents with limited healing, BHA and some sort of Glass Arrows spiker.

Oh and the last time i checked B/P was only effective because it involves 5+ Rangers all buffed with Winno/FW/Orders hitting multiple targets because the enemy AI isn't exactly brilliant.

XvArchonvX · Jun 20, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Bows would be unbalanced if they could do strong dps, it's as simple as that. Spears do more damage because they only come with the ability to hit in a short range and can't interupt NEAR on the same level as bows. This brings me to a point that I think Evilsod is missing entirely. People don't bring BA rangers for the degen, they bring them for the utility and ability to split. This is the much of the same reason that Cripple Shot rangers were so popular. They can bring 2 spammable interupts (dist and savage) to interupt, a running skill to backup the flag runner, self preservation (mending touch, troll, defensive stance), AS WELL as some damage. If a group just needed some degen, they would bring a necro or mesmer. Cripple Shots were able to provide more utility by snaring opponents and BA rangers were able to bring more pressure.

If bows could do DPS at a competitive level with something like a spear, there would be no reason to use a spear except as an adrenaline charger for a paragon. Bows can do everything a spear can do except for deep wound, but with more versatility. You can't change the range, arc, or refire rate of a spear mid battle to suit your needs.

Bows are also not comparable to Scythes, because a Scythe, just like warrior weapons requires melee range. If all weapons dealt the same damage, a melee weapon would deal less dps by far by virtue of the fact that you had to first get to the position of your enemy, then keep up with your enemy to be able to even land an attack.

Drizdee · Jun 20, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

People take the damage range in to account here, that's not even a problem.

What rangers need is a tiny buff to attackspeed at bows. Shortbows and flatbows put on the same rate as spears for example. You'd still be 8-16 armor below a spear user. And btw, spear users can inflict deep wound aswell. Wanna see a bow doing that.. Stunning spear is for Daze.

Drizdee · Jun 20, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

People take the damage range in to account here, that's not even a problem.

What rangers need is a tiny buff to attackspeed at bows. Shortbows and flatbows put on the same rate as spears for example. You'd still be 8-16 armor below a spear user. And btw, spear users can inflict deep wound aswell. Wanna see a bow doing that.. Stunning spear is for Daze.

ArKaiN · Jun 20, 2007, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Its not worth the effort. I gave a reply to his in my first post. Its the little bit at the bottom referring to certain pricks...

I'm still waiting for people to show me where these bow rangers are in PvP since the profession obviously has no problems with its DPS. Oh except its slower refire is only made worse by things like Faintheartedness. The only reason BA gankers are so potent is because of the degen vs opponents with limited healing.

Rangers get Savage Shot doesn't mean anything. That only works if you interrupt a spell. Can't take something into account for DPS when it depends on the enemy doing something.

Why exactly can't i bring Scythes into this? They are by far the most unbalanced weapon in the game. Yesterday while messing around on the Isle of the Nameless i managed to get a critical hit of about 340 from a regular attack. Course thats the extreme... but 340? A Ranger can only dream of damage numbers that high on 60 AL targets.

The bow line needs more damage. Either the bow needs a buff, because its really starting to look completely outclassed now when compared to the other lines, or the Marksmanship line needs a buff.
Just compare the Spear line to the Bow line. Bow has the ability to give 3 conditions, bleeding, but quite conditionally, burning on 1 elite, dazed on 1 elite 1 normal interrupt and an elite and non elite cripple. Spear gets adren based Burning, spammable adren based bleeding, 1 elite dazed, multiple deep wounds.
Only advantage bow has is that preperations, which basically attempt to make up for its obvious lack of damage is the ease of application of poison, which can be used by all other professions too if they wanted. They force it to specialize in either conditions or damage. You can't get both a good mix of both outside of Burning Arrow which isn't as strong once your back with healing. But Spear is 1 handed, attacks faster, has access to almost as many conditions.

Theres a reason why bow rangers don't actually exist in PvP... they suck for damage. You can find pretty much every Rampage as One variant known to man, a huge variety of trappers and spirit spammers and only 3 actual bow builds. 1 is BA which we already know is strong pressure vs opponents with limited healing, BHA and some sort of Glass Arrows spiker.

Oh and the last time i checked B/P was only effective because it involves 5+ Rangers all buffed with Winno/FW/Orders hitting multiple targets because the enemy AI isn't exactly brilliant.

Note I never called you any names, and made a perfectly rational argument. I guess dicecube's reply required you to save your e-penis's honor.
PvP does exist outside of GvG and HA, even though some pompous idiots aren't willing to admit it. Bow rangers strive perfectly in other forms of pvp.
Oh my god, 340 with some dude throwing 14 smite spells on you and casting weaken armor on a dummy. I've done way more with daggers and shattering assault, and people don't go "Good god the damage on daggers is a force to be reckoned with!". And daggers double strike! they must be a billion times better than scythes!
The daze for spears is pathetic. Also paragons can spam bleeding much worse than rangers can spread poison(hell, rangers can spread conditions better than any class- stand there and shoot 4 people without having to move in a cycle, keep everyone nice and poisoned).
I guess the point I'm making is simple. Yes, Dervishes are by far the best DPS class, if you look at scythes only. Still, the damage dealers in high-end pvp are warriors, not dervishes. Why is that? Maybe you can agree that the class's skills have something to do with its damage potential?
Anyway, this is my last post in this thread. Evilsod, feel free to throw mud at me if it makes you feel better about yourself.